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Trusting Versus knowing.


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The Universeable
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 03:01:54 am »


to me, trusting takes effort. knowing doesn't take any effort at all.  Grin
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Deveswar
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 07:14:14 am »

it is not language eugene Smiley
how can a doctor say i know (that is trust)
without trust lol

that is it, the conclusion
deveswar
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 06:46:21 am »

Quote from:  Undecided
oops i want to add this

Trust arise from knowing, Yes
without knowing you cant trust
 

LOL
Deves maybe it is a language thing. I trust you will answer my post. I dont know it. When I know it for sure I would not have to trust that you will.



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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 05:40:54 am »

 2funny

Im not upset in any way Deves. I never get upset but I suppose if you are upset you might think I am too LOL.

Anyway let me use your example.

"A painter paint from his trust-
trusting his skills, trusting his vision
trusting his end product"


There is another painter. One that knows what he is doing and can do. He knows his vision and knows what his end product is going to look like.

There are two Surgeons.

The one says "I trust I can fix your heart."
The other one says "I know I will fix your heart"

Will you choose the one who trusts in what he is doing or the one who knows what he is doing?
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 05:39:38 am »

oops i want to add this

Trust arise from knowing, Yes
without knowing you cant trust
 Grin
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 05:26:57 am »

Trust implies failure.

When a God creates he KNOWS it is done. He does not trust that it is done. Can you see the difference? You make a

Eugene, i am not trying counter arguments. each words resonate differently to different people
my apologize Smiley

For me with out trust no one can create. Trust is the source of creation
God or human- we trust our capability of creation

A painter paint from his trust-
trusting his skills, trusting his vision
trusting his end product

A machine is a product of some one's trust
some one's trust in himself, or collectively to produce.

The way i understand trust, is embedded in me.
with out trust in me i am low self-esteem
and i will deceive, by trusting others

trust is the source, and the only virtue.
All other virtues are mind made.
trust is love, that is god

And more over, i never believe that god created universe
There is no god, there is no create'r, nothing is created
Tao is everywhere that is all

my humble words, only. not opinion

deveswar
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2009, 09:18:42 am »

Trust implies failure.

When a God creates he KNOWS it is done. He does not trust that it is done. Can you see the difference? You make a machine and you trust it will work. When you tested it you know it will work. Trust means that it could also not work. Trust is bad manifestation. Knowing is best manifestation.

Does it make better sense now Deves?
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2009, 08:57:39 am »

Eugene,

it is not clear to me, that you mean

not to trust but to know

i cant see that trust and knowing as dialectical opposites.
there is no conflict between trust and knowing

Trust yourself - dont believe

knowing come with trust in ourselves
it is complementary to knowing.
with out trust you wont know.

may be it is my linguistic short coming, i misunderstood Smiley

i agree with just do, don't try
dont expect

deveswar
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« on: July 01, 2009, 08:29:18 am »

Trusting Versus Knowing
 
The common approach to spirituality is one of trusting. You must trust in what you believe to be true. This works well with theoretical practicing of spirituality. It is very much like trying. We listen to our truths and we trust that they will work. We try them out and we trust to get results. This I believe is the stage of collecting. When we collect knowledge on all the concepts and stuff it is well worth our time to trust and to try. It is like practicing what we will one day do for real. Like a dry practice run.
 
Later every one who practices the truth of spirituality gets to know that we really are God doing what God does. We are God ‘God-ding’. How does s/he do that? By creating and thus we create too. Oh we can call it postulation, visualization, projection, sorcery, creation wizardry, prayer, witchcraft, manifestation or anything you like but in the end it boils down that we are doing what God does. We create or co-create if that term suits you better. Whether we ‘ask’ deities or Gods to do things for us or do it ourselves we are still changing reality and thus creating.
 
Pretend for a moment that God is a person separate from you. When you ask God to climb a mountain what response would you get? I will try? I think I can? I trust that I can? Maybe? Or you can ask God to 'try' to climb a mountain and you will split your sides with laughter watching this "trying" going on. And so it is with us. We ask ourselves to trust and to try. Try is our way of saying you might fail and won't be blamed for it. Then you can play the honorable battle archetype. You tried so hard you must be honorable. Sometimes it takes less effort to just set yourself up to 'do' something instead of setting yourself up for 'trying' to do something. If trying is your affirmation or what you asked for then trying is what you will get. It is the same with trusting. It is not an affirmation of what is so, it is more a statement of how you will receive the results. "If you fail I will trust that you tried."
 
When we get to the actual creation part of our beliefs we are being told once again to trust. Trust does not have any place in this context anymore. How many times have we been told to have faith and to trust? In a way this is an oxymoron. Like pretty ugly. It is like saying have faith in your doubt. Have faith in the fact that you are not sure. When you are sure you don’t trust you just know. What is faith? Faith knows. Faith is beyond trust. When you flick a light switch you know the light is going to come on. That knowingness is faith. You don’t have to trust that the light will come on. You have enough faith in the wiring and technology that you know the light will come on.
 
Let's think of this statement. “Trust in your faith.” Trust in your knowing. Do you really need to trust in your knowing that the light will come on when you flick the switch? No you just know. That is the ultimate faith. In a way the words ‘trust’ and ‘try’ keeps us from really doing what we believe in theory to be true.
 
Compare these two statements. “ I trust that this treatment will work and I will try to heal you with it.” Or “I will heal you with this treatment.” The one statement is trusting and trying while the other is knowing and doing. Which doctor gets the job done?
 
We have to move from trusting to knowing. In the metaphysical reality the most creative thoughts are the definite ones. We have to move from trying to doing. A faith healer heals. S/he does not try to heal in the trust that it will work. S/he knows that s/he heals. Positive creation.
 
 There is no expectation either. When you know you know. You don’t expect. Just like trust and try, expect implies the possibility of something else happening. I don’t expect or trust that the sun is going to be there tomorrow. I know. “Unless I don’t.”
 
Wow and now we hit another copout. Or is it not? Why do we always say “unless not?” There is a whole wisdom concept in this statement. Is this a form of distrust? A way of saying this might not be happening? Yes and no.
 
Yes to some of us that have not moved totally to knowing it is a way of saying: Do not get hung up on the results. Don’t judge yourself a failure when the desired results do not show. The universe sometimes answers to your deeper desire when you wish for something. Sometimes “failure” is the catalyst to your greater desire. You might not get the Ferrari but in the long run you will get the admiration or prestige or acceptance or whatever you thought that the Ferrari will bring you. You might not get the money you wanted for your annual tax payment but you might discover that the clack sound under your bonnet was only a loose bolt instead of a damaged car altogether.
 
No when we say unless not we are detaching from outcome. It is a way of saying, “let go and let God” It is a way of saying “I am removing my egoic expectation from this affirmation.” It will happen in any way that the wiser God part of me sees fit and I will not interfere with this creation that is happening for me any further. I know it is in the making and that is enough. The how of it is not in your control. There is a greater wisdom working on that one. That wisdom is also you but so far removed that the part of you that operates in the physical reality cannot understand it.
 
We all know the restaurant parable. When you order a salad in a restaurant you sit back and enjoy your time waiting for it to show up. You put the order in and that is enough. Following the waiter to the kitchen and seeing whether all the ingredients are available and or ordered yesterday and seeing who is going to do what or trying to make it yourself is not going to help you get your salad on your table any faster. It will only interfere with the process that is happening for you.
 
Now we can take this parable a step further. If this waiter was your higher self who knows you better than you do he might bring you a glass of berry juice. You actually need these and those vitamins for nourishment. When you ordered the salad he understood that your deeper need actually is nourishment of certain vitamins. You can shun the waiter and vow never to order again, judging the order as a failure on your part to do so. You can tell your friends and the waiter that ordering does not work and this waiter who is a higher part of you will provide more of that for you too. More of the “ordering does not work” experience will show up for you affirming what you “knew “ all along. Until you choose to believe otherwise. Thus we say “unless not” Thank you waiter I will accept whatever you put on my table.
 
It might not be exactly in the way you thought it might show up but you can always order again right? There is an infinite supply in the kitchen as long as you don’t interfere.
 
Thus I say the following.
Don’t trust just KNOW
Don’t try just DO.
Don’t expect just ACCEPT
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